dm_duel rules change (1 Viewer)

[Hisu]

People playing on dm_duel should be familiar with this particular situation.

Six to eight people, demomen and sollies, just run back and forth between the locker and their spawn door, blindly emptying their clips on the arena. Result? The arena is constantly showered with explosives. Solutions?
1. Snipe them. Impossible without hax, as it'll require landing 100% of headshots, half of them charged to 200+hp.
2. Hoovy them. Impossible, as heavy simply does not do enough damage on that distance.
3. Team up with someone. Impossible, as if it was, there was no such situation to start with.
4. Spam nades from second or third floor. Entirely possible, but forbidden.

Hence, I suggest to allow spamming if the arena is bombarded or otherwise owned. Up to admin's discretion, of course, as there are no way to implement automatic detection of such situation.

No matter what you vote for, please post your reason here.

 

[Ron]

Such spam just destroys fun IMO, as you cant really come out in the main floor.

 

[Hisu]

Ron, of all people, I expected you to actually read my message >_<
I said allowing spam only in isolated case when the arena is completely dominated, as in, when you already can't really come out.

I never suggested allowing spam in general. I only suggested allowing it strictly to clear the domination.

 

[catface]

Well, the soldiers and demomen just bombard the arena, so players on the opposite team cannot come out anyway.

Which, in an essence is like fighting fire with fire. Spam with spam.

I think it would be better if Hisu's suggestion is tested before implementing it.

 

[Ron]

Ron, of all people, I expected you to actually read my message >_<
I said allowing spam only in isolated case when the arena is completely dominated, as in, when you already can't really come out.

I never suggested allowing spam in general. I only suggested allowing it strictly to clear the domination.

I meant in my message that the type of domination-spam isn't fun, and shouldn't be allowed, instead of just spamming at the spam in order for it to stop.

 

[Hisu]

I meant in my message that the type of domination-spam isn't fun, and shouldn't be allowed, instead of just spamming at the spam in order for it to stop.

You can't formalize domination, so it'd be just silly to try and rule against it. Better allow a countermeasure.

 

[Didixo]

2. Hoovy them. Impossible, as heavy simply does not do enough damage on that distance.

Pick Heavy, go the the roof, get above their door, prepare your minigun, fall down, rain hell upon them.

You could always give RTD a try. I mean it's like the main plugin of Duel since it can turn the situation completely around with Godmode, Toxic, Infinte ammo and the death-rolls.

 

[Hisu]

1. Three nades to the face = hoovy down. Yes, you can finish one or two of bombers before dying, but it won't stop them; what's more, they'll catch up to this tactic after second time you use it. All they have to do is look up, after all.
2. rtd usually requires a lot of time to roll something decent, and even then, it only disrupts domination temporarily, not clearing it, because 20 seconds (less, actually) isn't enough for dominated team to organize. The situation needs a reliable prolonged counter, and nade spam is the only one that exists.

 

[Electrod]

Hence, I suggest to allow spamming if the arena is bombarded or otherwise owned. Up to admin's discretion, of course, as there are no way to implement automatic detection of such situation.

No for me, it will simply encourage people to spam more, including those that used to spam.
Also, if you're spamming in the third stage to kill these people, I can easily come to the third stage to rocketspam your spot equally.

 

[Noodl]

Go pyro and airblast. Sorted.
Go DR spy. Sorted.
Be the campy sniper you usually are. Sorted
Build an uber. Sorted.
Be a good soldier and dodge. Sorted.

Interesting what you said about RTD being only 20 seconds which is too short, which contradicts your other posts complaining about toxic and godmode being too long.

 

[Didixo]

1. Three nades to the face = hoovy down. Yes, you can finish one or two of bombers before dying, but it won't stop them; what's more, they'll catch up to this tactic after second time you use it. All they have to do is look up, after all.
2. rtd usually requires a lot of time to roll something decent, and even then, it only disrupts domination temporarily, not clearing it, because 20 seconds (less, actually) isn't enough for dominated team to organize. The situation needs a reliable prolonged counter, and nade spam is the only one that exists.

If the suggestions I made are just temporary, then what makes your suggestion of allowing nade spam a permament solution? After all, everything you do will just be temporary, same as the arena spamming.

 

[EvoWarrior5]

Interesting what you said about RTD being only 20 seconds which is too short, which contradicts your other posts complaining about toxic and godmode being too long.

This.

I don't really have much of an opinion on the spam thing, I'd say it should never be allowed.

 

[Hisu]

Go pyro and airblast.

Pyro vs 3 demomen and 3 sollies: 1 projectile misses, 2 projectiles reflected, 3 hit, pyro goes in gibs. Not sorted.

Go DR spy. Sorted.

Bombardment intensifies, with the only difference that they rarely leave the spawn. Not sorted.

Be the campy sniper you usually are. Sorted

Door opens, I miraculously manage to headshot nearby solly, forcing him to retreat, but remaining five enemies resume bombardment. I instantly get caught in two or three explosions and go in gibs. Not sorted.

Build an uber. Sorted.

Okay, so I hide for 90 seconds or so, then I accompany some pyro and spend next 8 seconds being tossed through the air with multiple explosions, then we both get gibbed. Wait another 90 seconds, rinse and repeat? Not sorted.

Be a good soldier and dodge. Sorted.

Even a godlike solly like wonka can't dodge more than two attackers in such tight quarters as the dm_duel arena. I'm talking about BOMBARDMENT, when there are four to six and more attackers spam explosives. They don't try to get in, they don't try to hunt anyone, they just run back and forth between gates and the locker with m1 pressed, effectively denying the area to any single player or even a pair. And if it were that easy to organize more than a pair, this situation would never occur in the first place.

Interesting what you said about RTD being only 20 seconds which is too short, which contradicts your other posts complaining about toxic and godmode being too long.

This.
I don't really have much of an opinion on the spam thing, I'd say it should never be allowed.

Yes, and I still say they're too long to not disrupt the game. Which doesn't prevent them from being too short to make a difference against total pwnage aka stacked team.

If the suggestions I made are just temporary, then what makes your suggestion of allowing nade spam a permament solution? After all, everything you do will just be temporary, same as the arena spamming.

Again, I'm not talking about lifting the restriction on nade spam. I'm talking about allowing it ONLY to counter bombardment. Spamming when arena's accessible = still not allowed.

 

[Noodl]

The there's the problem of what counts as 'stacked or blocked access'

"I was spamming because they were bombarding the entrance"

How can you prove they were/weren't, and 'stacked or being owned' is somewhat subjective and prone to deixis.

 

[Didixo]

Again, I'm not talking about lifting the restriction on nade spam. I'm talking about allowing it ONLY to counter bombardment. Spamming when arena's accessible = still not allowed.

Still doesn't explain how allowing nade spam while you get bombarded is a permament solution for the whole match through compared to the other solutions being suggested in here? I am sorry, but you are sounding a little big egoistic in my opinion.

 

[Hisu]

Noodl, that's why I say it should be up to the admin's discretion, nonnegotiable. As in:
xxx: ZOMG SPAM BAN EM ADMIN!!!!11111oneoneone
[Admin] yyy: They were countering your bombardment, so no. Case dismissed.

Didixo, of course I do sound egoistic, as I want my solution to be implemented. ^_^
You suggested to try and legitimately counter the bombardment, but it's not a viable solution because it requires superiority in numbers. Which is, theoretically, doable, but you see, the problem is that if you had it, the problem wouldn't appear in the first place. Hence, there should be some way to turn tables single-handedly, while all the ways presented here allow for brief disruption at best (and nothing at worst). Which brings us back to countering bombardment with bombardment (what could be unfair about adequate response?), which, in turn, implies limited application of spam.

 

[Didixo]

Didixo, of course I do sound egoistic, as I want my solution to be implemented. ^_^
You suggested to try and legitimately counter the bombardment, but it's not a viable solution because it requires superiority in numbers. Which is, theoretically, doable, but you see, the problem is that if you had it, the problem wouldn't appear in the first place. Hence, there should be some way to turn tables single-handedly, while all the ways presented here allow for brief disruption at best (and nothing at worst). Which brings us back to countering bombardment with bombardment (what could be unfair about adequate response?), which, in turn, implies limited application of spam.

There's still a problem, spamming from above gives you limited line-of-sight, which then makes the demoman who spams from spawn not able to see where the "Trouble-makers" are.
Also, TF2 has ubercharge for a reason, use it for once.

 

[Noodl]

Hence, there should be some way to turn tables single-handedly

If you're looking for something like this, you're probably looking at the wrong game.
For many reasons that should really be evident.

 

[Hisu]

Didixo, first, you can check every now and then. Second, ubercharge only allows to temporarily disrupt the pwnage, nothing more. With a long, loooong pause before you can do the disruption thingy again. If you're against five or six players, no ubercharge can change things, you need to organize your whole team.

Noodl, nah, this game allows it. The rules on this map don't. So I'm asking for rules to be closer to the game, nothing more. I repeat, if conventional means were viable, this situation could not develop at all. It would've been stopped in its tracks. But once it happens, you're completely helpless — unless you answer with appropriate means. Which are forbidden. Don't you see it's unfair to allow offense but rule against equal defense?

 

[Didixo]

Didixo, first, you can check every now and then. Second, ubercharge only allows to temporarily disrupt the pwnage, nothing more. With a long, loooong pause before you can do the disruption thingy again. If you're against five or six players, no ubercharge can change things, you need to organize your whole team.

Let me ask you this again, like the third time already.
What makes your solution so permament? What makes our suggestions so temporary? What makes you right and us wrong?
You could try being less egoistic about your suggestions if you want them to be added effectively.